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Miro's guide to scaling Product-Led Sales

Adam Carr (Head of Global Sales at Miro) discusses how his sales team uses Pocus to accelerate revenue from their self-serve pipeline.

Alexa Grabell
May 9, 2023
Miro's guide to scaling Product-Led Sales

Adam Carr (Head of Global Sales at Miro) and Alexa Grabell (CEO of Pocus) dove into product-led GTM strategy and how Miro uses Pocus to accelerate revenue from their self-serve pipeline.

If you're curious about how the Pocus platform works - this is the perfect chance to see it out in the real world!

During this webinar, Adam covered all the details of how Miro's sales team has leveraged Pocus features to run their PLS motion:​

🔮 Surface and prioritize leads from their existing pipeline of users

🔮 Run targeted playbooks for each stage of the customer journey

Watch the recording

About Miro

Miro, the favorite "online whiteboard" for remote and in-person teams alike, is a visual platform that enables teams to connect, collaborate, and create.

About Pocus

Pocus is a Revenue Data Platform that makes it easy for go-to-market teams to analyze, visualize, and action data about their prospects and customers without needing engineers.

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Read the transcript

Note: this transcript has been lightly edited for clarity

Alexa: So how we will go through this today is: we will dive into Pocus a bit, do a quick overview of what is Pocus, what does it look like, why does it exist... Then we're going to hand it over to the lovely Adam Carr, who I'll introduce in a minute, who will chat about how he scaled Product-Led Sales at Miro, and then where Pocus fits in that journey.

Before we jump in, I want to introduce Adam. Thank you so much for being here. Adam is the Head of Global sales at Miro. He has been at Miro for three and a half years, growing out the revenue team, the function, the org.

And we'll dive into that a little more in this conversation on how sales at Miro has looked really, really different three and a half years ago to today before and after Covid days, and what that transformation and evolution has looked like.

Before Miro, Adam ran lots of different sales orgs at high growth SaaS companies like classy.org, which was acquired by GoFundMe, Fivestars, and box, which we saw Michael mention in the chat.

Anything I missed, Adam?

Adam: No, I think you hit it head on. Thank you. Amazing. 

Alexa: Cool. Thank you again for being here. So while folks trickle in, I'm going to give you a little bit of background on why we're here today. What is Pocus; even give you a quick demo and then we'll dive right into Adam's chat.

Some context on why we're here and why we're talking today: In this modern go-to-market world, especially in product-led growth companies where there's so much data about users living in various different tools, common ones are CRMs, like Salesforce, data warehouses like Snowflake.

There's data in a lot of different places. But go-to-market teams don't always have access to that data to make it super actionable, but they want to be data driven. So we have this challenge where go-to-market teams want to be data driven, but data is living in lots of different places. So it's really hard for go-to-market to get their hands on that data, especially product usage data.

If you go to the next slide. The result of what's happening is reps, whether that's SDRs, AEs, they're flying blind, they don't know where to look for opportunities for really high potential conversion opportunities that really can help them hit their quota or get to the next stage of growth.

So they're missing those opportunities in their pipeline. But with Pocus, that's where we come in as a Revenue Data Platform to help sales reps find that hidden revenue within their pipeline. So what we'll do, as you'll see on the next slide, a quick overview of Pocus, is we take data from various parts of an organization.

So like I mentioned, the data warehouse, the CRM, and we bring it all into a holistic view for go-to-market teams to be able to join that data together in one view so they know exactly who to prioritize and who to go after and what action to take. So you'll see in step one what we do is we connect all this data into Pocus.

Step two, we unify that data in a way that's really easy for data teams and RevOps teams. Step three is we actually operationalize the data. We can build playbooks, we can build automations, reporting. We have a predicts feature, which uses AI to actually surface the best recommendations and 360 insights, which I mentioned before to help you really understand everything about a customer or a prospect, whether it's product usage data or customer firmographic data.

And the impact of this is it drives revenue. It helps sales teams, customer success teams, broader, go-to-market teams, really accelerate revenue and save a ton of time digging through data. So one more slide here. We're gonna talk about how Pocus, how Miro uses Pocus to accelerate revenue. So some background on Miro.

I think everyone on this call probably knows what Miro is because they are one of the hottest companies right now in B2B SaaS in the productivity tool space. Quick context on Murro. They were founded in 2011. Over 50 million users, which is an insane amount of growth for a product-led growth company.

It's incredible and a really solid valuation. And why Pocus Miro came to Pocus was originally for three different use cases. First is warm, making warm prospecting, really simple. So we'll talk about what outbounding at mural looks like, or warm prospecting, the ability for reps to have the top leads in their inbox to take action.

Territory planning so that reps can easily prioritize their book of business and do this all themselves without relying on the data team so that they can analyze data whether that's dashboards, scores, or playbooks. So what I'm gonna do now is a quick two minute overview of what Pocus looks like, not with Miro data, because that would not make Miro happy, but with some, some fake data so you can get the sense of what Pocus actually looks like, and then we'll hand it over to Adam.

So what you're looking at right now is Pocus Revenue Data Platform. And so what we do, like I said, bring data together, surface it in a way for go-to-market teams to easily find the best opportunities and take action.

And so there's lots of different use cases for Pocus across sales, RevOps, data teams. Right now we're gonna focus on the sales use case. So let's pretend that I am an AE at a productivity tool company. There are two places that I'll primarily interact with Pocus. So the first place is in this inbox. And what you see in the inbox is various different inboxes or playbooks that will surface leads or opportunities and tell you why they've been surfaced.

And then the actions you can should take. So you can treat this like a really data powered to-do list or inbox. So I might look at the first one I see there are 49 users that are showing up in a free to paid conversion inbox for power users. So what I can see here is that there's 49 users already on my product.

And they are engaged. They're inviting their team members. So this probably means that we should research how the user is engaging the product and send them a message. And so the first one that shows up is I see Jennifer Burns. I can see she sent five invites. She's part of Hacker Rank. She's a good product qualified lead.

I can hover over. Good to see why. It looks like she's senior. She's nearing a paywall. She's invited others. And I might wanna learn more about Jennifer, so I'll open up Jennifer to learn a little bit more. I can see that she's downloaded some things, sent some messages, locked in a bunch, sent some invites.

I can see when she signed up for the product. But really interesting. I can also see the account that Jennifer is associated with. So again, we learned that she's part of Hacker Rank and if we open up hacker rank, I can learn more about how this account at a whole is using the product that I that for the company, mysterious company productivity tool company that I work for.

And what you can see here is at the account level, the usage metrics in the firmographic of what are the total users, what percent of them are active, how many messages, log-ins, invites sent. What are some account information around the total money raised or the signup update, or whether they're using certain features like AI powered features.

And what we can do is dig in. We can see Jennifer Burns. It looks like she's a paid user. Good PQL sent a bunch of invites. She's senior, she's a director plus title, but I can see there's 73 other paid users and many free users in various workspaces. Let's say I do my research here and I still think that Jennifer is the best person to engage with at this account.

What I can do is take action directly from here. I can create a contact in Salesforce, open her LinkedIn, open up email, or I can even directly enroll into an outreach or SalesLoft sequence from Pocus. And let's say I enroll Jennifer, then I would just hit Mark as done. And my to-do list just went from 49 to 48.

And we can do this pretty quickly. We can say, you know, Sherry, Natalia, and Pamela all should go into an outreach sequence. I will put them in here and hit mark done so I can prospect and reach out to users that are high priority or high potential opportunity really quickly. And then I'd go into my next inbox.

I see that there's free to paid conversion. There's accounts that have multiple different workspaces set up, so we should probably consolidate this into one workspace. I would do the same type of research. Maybe I see that greenhouse software is a good lead or good account. I can do all my research here, learn more.

I can see, wow, there's 74 active product users at Greenhouse. Maybe I wanna open this up and see all of them. And I wanna add all of the users that are senior into a sequence, and I can do that directly from here. So this is the quick overview of inboxes for sales reps. The one other thing that I'd like to show you quickly is how lists work.

So lists are ways to slice and dice your data and create different views of whether it's your book of business, all of the accounts on your free trial, your basic plan, your pro plan, really however you wanna view data. And so let's see that. Say that I wanted to look at my book of business and usually at PLG companies I might have a really, really big book of business because we have tons of self-serve users.

So what I could do here is see all a thousand accounts in my book, get really quick information around what does product engagement look like, what does customer fit look like? How many users are there? Are they using certain features? And I can filter this down as much as I want. So I can say, for example, I wanna see all of the active users, all the accounts that have more than a hundred active users and their product engagement score is equal to excellent.

And what this will do for me is actually filter this list down for me to a much more digestible list of 117 accounts. And so now I can do prospecting list building way, way easier with Pocus. So lots more we can go into, but gonna pause there so that you get the gist of what focus is. And I'm gonna hand it over to Adam next.

So thank you again for being here, Adam. The first thing that I'd love to cover with you is just an overview of what does Miro's product led sales motion look like and what did that evolution, how did that, how did that look and what does the past couple of years, since you've been there what does that look like?

Adam: Yeah, thank you. So I think the best way to describe Miro is that like, you know, we've been on a long journey and there's been an evolution and so maybe take a step backwards is that at the core we've been, we, we started as a B2B2C company. And so in 2011 it's when we started it was a, you know, a whiteboarding platform. 

A lot of folks don't realize that early on we had sales teams. We had a few folks were there building out the zero to one experimenting in regards to how to take the high-touch motion to the next level. And so that was so early on in the product journey. The way that I like to frame it is that when I joined Miro three and a half years ago, there was folks before me that, there was a sales leader here that helped build the foundation.

And he built it from zero to one. His name was Tom and he was here for four years and prior to me joining. And so if you think about that, that means right now I'm three and a half years in, that's seven and a half years that there's been a high-touch team at Miro. And a lot of folks don't realize that, you know, how important it is to start building out that go-to-market motion early on.

And that's a big kudos to Andre, our CEO, is that he understood the power of both PLG, the bottoms up motion and the importance of building a go-to-market engine tops down. And so when I joined three and a half years ago it was all about scale. It was all about how do we take the zero to one learnings and how do we scale the sales team.

And that really broke down to, how do we implement the Miro way of selling? And that looks at like leveraging the right sales process, implementing the right forecasting mechanisms. And we use MEDDIC here. And then layering on top of that, our sales methodology, which is force management.

And those were all things early on that we launched in my journey here at Miro and lucky we did because of the growth. It's really hard to be able to add that rigor in after you're growing and scaling so fast. And so that journey has been incredible. You know, 2011, and then 2018, you know, we went on the journey to more of a visual collaboration platform, and now we're moving into this innovation category.

Where every team right now is looking at how do they innovate and how do they change the way that their work is getting done and helping them create the next big thing. So I'm excited to dig into this more. I'm really passionate around Product-Led Sales and the power of both the bottoms up and tops down sales motion.

Alexa: Thank you Adam. Super impressive journey. Going a little bit deeper then into Product-Led Sales, what does that mean to Miro? 

Adam: Yeah. So what that means, like, first like product led growth, I say that first because there's a lot of misconception in regards to, at the end of the day, the point is that you're creating value for end users and the value is realized before you start to monetize, and it can create some conflict internally, if you don't have the right perspective and the right mindset.

And what I mean by that is like, you can't look at self-service being competition. It's one team and we're better together and we're stronger together. And, it starts from the top. And so we look at it like as really deeply understanding the funnel when it comes to early on new users sign-ups to how those new users signups convert to paid users.

How those paid users convert to the right teams, to then teams to the enterprise plan, and then enterprise plan through the expansion evolution. And we break it up into two motions at Miro, we break it up to a land motion and expand motion. And so there's a reason for that. We have different segments based on company size because the journey is different and it's important for us to tailor the right sales conversations to the right customer and where they're at in their journey.

So happy to go deeper in there, but that's, how we're set up. 

Alexa: I know in the Covid times you absolutely skyrocketed in terms of user growth and product led growth was super successful. So why did you even, why did they need to hire people like you to layer on sales? 

Adam: Yeah, so it's I think there's lots of fun articles out there around, you know companies that believe that sales is not needed.

And like I said, it's a big kudos to Andre and early on, seeing the value of bringing on a high touch motion, but like first figuring it out and then having a culture of experimentation is really important. But at the end of the day, like to be able to go sell large deals, to be able to sell a 100k, you know, million dollar plus deals and to maintain and build these relationships, it's people.

People buy from people. The other key element of this is like when you start selling into the enterprise, you need to go through deep security reviews. You go through procurement, you have to go through security questionnaires and making sure that you validate that. And so the biggest thing though is like you can penetrate accounts widely but you want to go deeper.

And so to go deeper, you need to be able to take the usage and tie it to business outcomes. And that's a big focus here at Miro is like, we have so much great usage. How do we understand that usage? How do we build the right business cases to then take that tops down and standardize on new ways of doing work because of the outcomes that it's deriving for the business?

Alexa: Yeah, and I think on that note, it's your self-serve funnel is such a strong pipeline for your sales team, and I think it is extremely impressive. I remember when I learned that Miro does zero cold outbound and everything is warm outbounding just because of how strong your self-serve funnel is. I was kind of blown away by that, and I don't know if you can speak to how you think about outbound in a company like Miro.

Adam: Yeah. So I, and this may be why I'm so passionate about the power of it, is that it's all about reaching out to the right people at the right time. And that's something that we're really passionate about is that, you know, everyone's got, everyone's on a journey. And the part about Miro is like, and a PLG motion is that we're trying to ensure that we give books value of the tool and they track value before it's time to scale it.

And so outbound to us is that we leverage our install base to go outbound into those accounts. And we have certain, we call product qualified accounts or product qualified leads and product qualified accounts is they hit a certain activity trigger and that's when we believe that they're the right moment to actually get high touch engagement.

And, the reason why is we look at conversion rates like when they hit a certain threshold, it makes sense for us to engage because they're ready and they have a higher likelihood to convert to the enterprise plan and they're ready to be able to scale. And so when you think about outbounding, like cold outbounding versus warm outbound, it's also about efficiency.

Resources are expensive and like, let's put the right resources in a point where they can be the most productive. And that's also been core to how we run at Miro, is like, let's make sure we have highly productive folks that allow us to build a really efficient business model and, and that are also able to be successful in what they do.

Yep. 

Alexa: So you have this awesome Product-Led Sales motion, you've figured it all out. Now I wanna talk about how Pocus has enabled some of that motion. I'm curious, before you came to Pocus, what problems were you trying to address? Like, why didn't you even reach out to us in the 

Adam: beginning? Yeah, so there's a few like, like problem statements.

I guess the best way of saying this, where should sales reps prioritize their time? So if you think about being in a horizontal motion like Miro, and with so many use cases, so many ways to break into accounts, like we can sell to every line of business, essentially. Now we have a core of product development teams.

Research and development teams is where we go really deep into workflows and use cases. But there's just, there's so much you can do. And so how do we prioritize time? What are the right signals to look at before having somebody reach out? And then when I am going to reach out, how do I make sure I reach out 

with the most relevant message that resonates. Because we have so much data to help us tailor that right message to the right individual that'll land the best to secure the meeting. And then, you know, how should we be tracking all of our product qualified leads, our PQAs, all the triggers that we're doing in so many different systems and tools.

And then at the end of the day, like the tech stack we gotta modernize it. And like, I'm really big on just like operational efficiency and making it easy for the sales reps to be able to, you know, do their day-to-day. And so, part of the problems that we had is that there's so many systems with disparate information and data sets, and so how do we make it into a simple UI that actually reps enjoy to do, enjoy, to go to every single day.

Yeah, 

Alexa: I think it's, you have this blessing of having too much data where you have so many users that are using engaging, loving Miro, but then that also makes it harder for sales reps to really quickly get insight and quickly take action. Very cool. So you mentioned a lot of different reasons, or problems that you came, or open questions that you came to Pocus with.

Lots of different areas that you could really use Pocus in your organization. What were the first few use cases that you identified as the highest priority for using something like Pocus? 

Adam: I would say like the, the first is the playbooks. We're running plays all the time and, and operationalizing those plays.

And making those plays easy and repeatable was one. The second one is just having better insights into accounts. Like you just walked through that demo, like within three clicks of a button I could be to the right contact within the right account and send the right message out. And that used to take significant amount of time to make that happen.

And we would be in like BI tools like Looker. And it's not to say that Looker isn't a great and amazing tool cause it is. It actually powers a lot of what we still leverage within the Pocus environment too. But it just wasn't as easy to take action. And so having the right level of account insights and one aggregated view made it easier for our teams to be able to know when to do the right outreach at the right time.

And so just having the simple UI with step one and then getting down to the line of business layer, where is our penetration to line of businesses? Who are the right senior stakeholders? Who are the power users, casual users? What about from a seniority perspective? And so there's all these angles that we're trying to triangulate on these accounts to actually be the most effective with our time.

Alexa: Yeah. I remember specifically, especially the rolling up of how many users are in this workspace or in this line of business or in this account or in this domain. That was a big thing because that's really hard to do with disparate systems and that's where we spent a lot of time together mapping out your data hierarchy and how to visualize that

well for the sales reps. Danny had a good question. How did life look before you engaged with Pocus? How did you match behavioral data to power the go-to-market team? And I think that's a little bit of what you mentioned with Looker, but maybe you wanna expand on that. 

Adam: It's not like we're not replacing Looker entirely, Looker powers a lot of our data intelligence and we're continuing to build upon Looker. But yeah, we use Looker as a mechanism to get the right insights that the team was using. There's multiple Looker dashboards. But, it lacked the ease of use.

Sales folks are not in Looker every single day, and they don't understand how to extract the value. And it's also hard to get to the action piece of it. It can surface up data, but Looker's not good at driving action. And that's where we found that a platform like Pocus was able to take the insights to drive action and make that really fast.

So Looker was one. Salesforce is another. But now everything that we have is stored in Snowflake, which makes it a lot easier for us to be able to upload and implement new data into the Pocus environment as well. 

Alexa: Yep. So playing that back, you had Looker sitting on top of Snowflake and then you had Salesforce.

Now what's happening is Pocus is sitting on top of the raw data in Snowflake, some still in Salesforce, pushing it into Pocus, and then there's also Looker embeds in Pocus. So it's consolidating everything. So sales reps can just quickly go from insight to 

Adam: action. Absolutely. And like there's no more spreadsheets.

We used to have spreadsheets too, of information that we're trying to go after, and so. Everything is consolidated now. Yep. 

Alexa: Everyone, sales reps hate spreadsheets. I hate spreadsheets. No sales rep wants to be in spreadsheet hell. Awesome. So I remember early, oh, there's another question in the chat.

How do you think about automating sequences, giving that there's a lot of data surface in Pocus. 

Adam: Yeah, so we've tested this quite a bit actually. The challenge with automation at scale is, for us personally, is we have so many different triggers and so many different users, and so you lose the personal touch.

I agree with the right type of automation at the right point in time and the journey of the customer. But we're very thoughtful of that, especially at Miro. There's constantly new users signing up, new users taking action, and there's just a balance between spamming people and at the same time taking the extra few minutes to drive that personal connection.

And because we're so focused on customer value and making sure that we're reaching out the right point at the right time, we try to limit as much as we can, the automation elements which is honestly a key reason why we use Pocus is because within three clicks I can actually get to the outreach sequence.

We use outreach as our sequencing tool and our automation for that. But we've created templates to make it faster for the sales team to do outreach into it. I think there's an opportunity for us to automate more. We're, still early in that journey. Yeah, 

Alexa: totally.

So. Lots of questions coming in. I'm gonna ask one more question then I'll go back to chat. So I remember early on there was a big build vs. Buy conversation because Pocus is a couple years in. Before Pocus a lot of companies were spending a lot of resources building out internal solutions. I'm curious for you how you ultimately went with the buy decision and why you didn't continue to build internally?

Adam: Yeah, so we spent 

Adam: lot of time on this. So we looked at a ton of platforms out there. There's a lot of great products in this category. And so we, we realized that having folks full-time creating Looker dashboards is not the best use of time. I'd rather our data analytics teams spend time surfacing up new insights that we believe can help drive more predictability into the right user outreach, the right accounts, the right positioning.

And so we just decided, where do you want your resources spending their time? And so you could spend, you could have multiple full-time resources building up Looker dashboards and replicate what you're doing in Pocus. It'll never be as good. As we all know, it's impossible to build something as simple and intuitive as Pocus, which layers on top of all of our data architecture.

And so we thought, let's have the better of both. And it's honestly streamlined a lot of our efforts and it helps us speed up the identification of new insights to when we can actually drive action towards it. So even today, I would still decide to buy versus build. But that's also like the mindset that we have here is like, it's just you gotta put your resources in the best way possible.

Yep. 

Alexa: That, that makes a ton of sense. And I'm curious, can you speak to some of the outcomes that you've seen from Pocus enabling your sales team or data team or RevOps team, whatever comes to mind for you. 

Adam: Yeah, so when I think of outcomes, I think of meetings. I think of penetration accounts.

I think of satisfaction of the employees that are using it. And so I think like I'm really excited about what's coming soon here with the reporting and insights too, because, we will be able to actually track more, surface up these insights at these plays, like how, what was the outcomes of this?

And so I think that's a journey we're on right now. So I think early on we're, we're getting the sentiment and feedback from the team is that it makes our jobs way easier. They're spending less time doing research, more time taking action. And same with the data analytics team. We're hearing feedback in regards to the time it takes, the ease of ability to be able to integrate the data systems and to be able to like, take something that normally would've taken a long time to get sales attention is now become part of the playbook and the norm.

Instead of just turning up a new dashboard and we all probably on this call have like 15 dashboards that you look at, it's really hard to manage and then it's like the flavor of the week. And so now that we're embedding this into one motion, it makes it a lot easier. Yeah, 

Alexa: that's great to hear.

It's been really fun to work with your team and hear things like, we save 10 to 15 hours per week. Just from that I would've done researching the accounts and it's been really cool to see the evolution there of working with your reps for a bit and seeing how they're prospecting and account research has really shifted.

I'm curious also, something that we were very intentional, I think your team was extremely intentional about was the rollout of Pocus to your team. Because I'm sure every sales leader on this call is thinking sales doesn't need another tool. How am I gonna train them on another tool? How did that, what did that rollout and, and look like and what should be considered before rolling out a new tool and making reps adopt something else?

Adam: Yeah. So slow is smooth, smooth is fast is one of my favorite sayings. I think Jamie's actually on this call here right now, who's one of my RevOps counterparts to make this happen. It's not easy, we started with one team. We started with our SDR group, and we actually walk through every step because, it's really hard to imagine every scenario.

And the best thing you can do is get a small group and start to test and iterate and then get the buy-in. And then we started to understand the flows. We started to understand where things were breaking, where things didn't make sense. So it's almost as if like, we're launching a new product and you're looking at every step of the process.

That's what we did. And then we did that with one team. Then we expanded to another team and we looked at it by different functions of the org so, we have different motions at Miro. We have a sales development team that's inbound. We have a sales development team that's outbound. We then have a new logo team.

We then have an expansion team. So we looked at the different roles. We mastered those roles in the Pocus environment, and then we had internal champions that allowed us to scale faster. And, we're still on that journey. Like we still have lots of opportunity to make it better, and we're iterating on it every single week.

Alexa: I thought it was extremely well kind of a rollout and enablement separated by teams and geographies and really getting the early power users on the tool and quickly learning how to use it and then teaching their peers on how to use it as well.

And I don't know, I don't wanna speak for you, Adam, but does it feel like pain getting new reps to learn something new? Or was it intuitive? 

Adam: Yeah, I think anything new, everyone's adverse to change in general. So I think that it's, you know, you have to create the value and they have to see the outcomes that you're driving them towards.

But it was a big pain point. So I think everybody realized the pain point that was there and how hard it was and how some data systems are inaccurate. And so like just aggregating it, having one source of truth and making it simple and easy for them to go get that information and they go take action based upon what, at the end of the day, they need to go build pipeline and close business.

And so whatever we can do to get 'em out of their, their own way and to focus on the two things that matter. It was, it was welcomed and there was a lot of great positive feedback once we got 'em into the system and they saw it. 

Alexa: Yeah. And would you say you've noticed a change in reps before and after using Pocus?

Adam: Yeah. So yes, I would say that we absolutely do. There's some folks that that have come out and have strongly said that they can't imagine doing this any other way. I also have seen a lot of new ideas spur up too. It's like, Hey, what about a playbook in this way?

What about if we could aggregate a list in this way? And to be honest, like that's what we want. We want the teams, we focus on creativity, new ways of thinking about how to get access to the right folks to penetrate the accounts. And so these are things that in the past, it would take us weeks to operationalize.

And so now in a matter of a few conversations, we can turn up a new playbook, start testing and iterating it and seeing if it's something that we can scale. And so that's the mindset that we've really built in and we're starting to get much more mature around, especially in the go-to-market motion, is this mindset of experimentation.

And we have a ways to go, but it's a way of like, let's come up with fresh ideas and let's test, let's hypothesize, and then let's go to that zero to one mindset. And then once we have that, let's scale it. And we're finding that Pocus is empowering that within the teams. 

Alexa: I love that you say that something that, well, first of all, something that I see best in class product led growth companies have is rapid experimentation, and I should say Product-Led Sales orgs.

Just constantly saying, all right, what playbook should we spin out? What score should look different? What list, what drill down? How should we visualize the data differently? Should we be looking at different trends and being able to nimbly run up different experiments and see how it plays is what I see as kind of best in class Product-Led Sales orgs.

So that has been a goal of Pocus since the very early days. How do we make sure that we can drive that experimental mindset for sales teams at product led growth companies? 

Adam: Yep. And we're seeing that, which is awesome, and we have a long way to go. We're not perfect by any means. We're early on in that journey.

Platforms like Pocus help enable that quickly. And we're running a lot of our tests as well through the Pocus. So like we're doing our own experimentation around messaging and plays and, all of that is being funneled through the Pocus platform. 

Alexa: So last question I have for you, Adam.

We talked about how there's lots more room to implement Pocus. Like we started with a sliver of a use case of sales of let's get SDRs and AEs and AMs on the product and figuring out how can we enable them in Product-Led Sales to surface millions of pipeline and save them hours per week.

But there's a lot that we've been working with Miro on to inform our product roadmap. To inform new use cases at Miro and I feel like we're constantly working with you all to find new use cases, specifically you and Jamie on what can really unlock the next phase of growth for you all. So I'm curious, what are the new use cases that you're excited about Pocus that are coming next?

Adam: I think there's so much, right? So I think as far as a data intelligence platform, I think that it's in the beginning stages of the power in regards to, we today have sales on Pocus. I see no reason for our customer success teams to not have access to it, and they're asking for it.

They love, they see what we're doing. We're just, again, making sure we get the proper enablement done first. We see that it's part of the new behaviors, and then we can start to move into adjacent roles. So I'd say that's one is like, how do we get our customer success teams leveraging Pocus.

 I'd say the way I view it is that like it's a cockpit. It's a cockpit for go to market. It's a way to be able to take data, not just on type gen, but how do we progress pipeline? And I think that's the next phase where I'm really excited to look at is how are we looking at open pipeline in the various stages, like late stage deals, what plays can we be running, what ways can we surface up information that can drive action?

And that's something that we've yet to start, but something I'm excited about. And then I think the last part that I'm probably more excited about than anything is how we leverage the reporting and insights to drive better coaching. And so coaching is super big and important, especially in our environment and professional development and a culture of constantly challenging and being radically candid and

we need to leverage information to better enable our teams and the folks that we have here, especially in this environment where it's tough out there, budgets are being cut and you have to go stronger when it comes to the value that you're extracting and being able to articulate that value to organizations.

And so the data insights will help us know where are our blind spots, where are areas that we can double down? What does good look like? So, that's something that's being launched now, and I'm excited to double down there. Yep. 

Alexa: That's music to my ears. We have the coaching and reporting and Pocus predicts rolling out in beta now, and it's been so cool to see the impact.

I'm so excited to have it rolled out to Miro next. And something that you mentioned in terms of the customer go-to-market cockpit. If people on this call saw two weeks ago, we relaunched Pocus as a Revenue Data Platform. So previously we were a Product-Led Sales platform. And we did a relaunch into something bigger than that as a Revenue Data Platform.

And it's exactly what Adam and Jamie and the Miro-Pocus team were guiding us towards. Adam would say, you know, this is more than just a Product-Led Sales platform because I want you to power more than just converting free opportunities to paid. And I want you to power customer success and you're giving us the power to really inform all of go-to-market with data.

So a lot of that category shift that we made of Product-Led Sales being a bucket of the Revenue Data Platform has been driven by our relationship with Miro, which has been awesome. Thank you, Adam. I'm gonna throw you on the spot with a question. I'm curious, what is your advice for sales leaders that are just starting their Product-Led Sales 

Adam: journey?

It's don't get caught up in the usage. Like usage doesn't mean everything. People are using the tool for a reason and really deeply understanding their before state, like the negative consequences tied to that before state. And then what the after scenario is by leveraging your tool and then being able to articulate the business case.

And it's something that we've been focusing on for a long time. We have a long ways to go, but extracting the value and understanding the real business impact that the usage has because I think in the PLG motion, it's easy to get caught up in the usage game. Wow, there's a ton of usage in the account.

Look at how many log-ins they have, how many shares they have, how many boards they're creating. But that doesn't mean anything if you can't talk about it from a business perspective in the processes that it's actually improving. 

Alexa: And what about your parting advice for, maybe there's some sales reps on the call that are earlier in their career or mid in their career and trying to absolutely crush it in a product-led growth world.

What can they do to advance their career? 

Adam: Yeah, I think it's being smart. There's a lot of signals in product-led growth. You could spend all your time having a ton of great conversations, but they go nowhere. It's understanding that, it's leveraging the bottoms up that goes tops down.

In my opinion, it's creating, getting those user stories, understanding the impact on the smaller use case, the smaller instances and figuring out, how do I scale? And if there's not a way to scale a use case to a broader group of people, then you should get out. We've got, and I think for us in general, it's qualifying deals in and out early

has been a really, really important piece for us to ensure that we're set up for success. So we're not spending a lot of time working deals or accounts are not ready and that's okay. They might not be ready. And that's the power is that in a lot of cases we lose because they're just not ready.

When you think about from a, from a new logo perspective and on the expansion side is because we're not able to articulate the value enough. And that's a way that we're constantly working on that. And that's what I encourage anybody in the product led arenas like focus on value. 

Alexa: Yeah. That is definitely a consistent theme of focus on value.

If a user is not ready to talk to sales, let them remain in their self-serve journey until there is that business case and value that you can provide to them. And that's where sales comes in. And I think what I've seen from your reps also Adam, those that have been a little more, more data driven and been able to dive into who should I reach out to and why and how, and be personalized, have been absolutely crushing it.

It's been really cool to see that. Before we go and I say my thank yous, where do you where can people find you if they wanna learn more? Are you on LinkedIn or Twitter or hanging out anywhere? 

Adam: Yeah. I guess LinkedIn's the best spot. I'm not as good as I want to be when it comes to sharing thought leadership in regards to the Product-Led Sales motion.

I, it's something that I'm personally I have goals on my own side to be better at that. But I would say LinkedIn. It's something that I'm definitely going to be in a future state sharing more around, you know, the category in general. Becauswe I believe it's game changing. I mean, every company out there, I mean, there's some stats around like, publicly traded companies that are now all developing a product led motion.

And it's one of the most efficient ways to scale. 

Alexa: Amazing. Well, thank you so much for being here, Adam, and sharing the story of the evolution of Miro through the early days to where they are now through Product-Led Sales and how Pocus has enabled that.

We so appreciate your partnership in working with you and it's been so much fun building this together and I just can't wait for shipping more to the Miro team. Feel free to message me on LinkedIn or my email is alexa@pocus.com if you wanna get a demo of Pocus for your org.

But thank you so much Adam. This was awesome, and Jamie, for being awesome and answering the chat. You rock as always. So thank you all so much. Hope you have an amazing day. 

Adam: Awesome. Thank you. 

Alexa Grabell
Co-Founder & CEO at Pocus
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